23
May
2014

X-PRO2 will feature an APS-C sensor! (trusted source)

 photo pro_zpsfd438901.jpg

On December 16th Fuji Manager Mr. Kawahara said in this interviewif user demand FF, really, I want to hear the reason why.” Well, it seems that the reasons to put an FF sensor in the X-PRO2 did not convince the company.

In fact, the trusted Japanese source just told me that the X-PRO2 will feature an APS-C sensor. At the moment, I do not have more details about it.

That’s a good news for all those, who invested in the excellent Fujinon lenses.

stay tuned and follow the rumors 24X7 at Facebook, google+, RSS-feed and Twitter

  • Andrew Brown

    givent he IQ from the current range of sensors – why put yourself through al the hassle of FF when there is no real gain to it… I’ve done FF and am more than happy with the APS-C sensor in my X-Pro 1

    • westin

      Surely you don’t really mean that. Your statement implies a lack of knowledge regarding the benefits of larger sensors. I’m not saying that full-frame sensors offer massive advantages over APS-C, but nonetheless, there are still advantages. If you don’t know what they are then I don’t want to explain them.

      • x-ameture2

        Sure there are advantages, but there are also disadvantages. I left Nikon full frame for Fuji APS-C and have been happy with the switch.

      • Eric Duminil

        Yes, new FF sensors are still better than new X-Trans APS-C sensors. But the current APS-C sensors are good enough for many applications, good enough for me, and as good as my D700 sensor.

      • Andrew Brown

        yes, I really do mean that.

        OH, and I moved to Fuji after disposing of my Canon FF kit – so I do understand the differences.

        But now let’s put the foot on the other shoe and play a little game i used to play. Find a photographer who works with medium, FF and APS-C and then look at their work, and without reading or asking, guess which format they used to take the picture…
        I can assure you it is harder than you think to tell the different on most of the cases.

        So, given that Fuji alredy produce APS-C stuff that is as good or better than the 5D2 and not far off the 5D3, why would they invest in R&D to create a whole new line of bodies and lenses that will be closer to the size that encouraged most people off loaded their big body stuff.

        My mate still lugs around a bag big enough to do a tour of the Amazon to carry his kit in. His back hurts like hell when he spends a day out on a shoot. Me – I put my camera in one body, a second lens in anothe pocket and have a little flask holder with my tripod and cable release in it. My back is fine thank you. And the quality of our pictures? You really could not justify paying two, threee or four times the cost to get any percieved edge over my X-Pro 1.

        Your response sound like an old Bill Gates response when he was being pulled up for something Microsoft was getting so wrong. It always started with “it’s clear you’re not understanding the technology we’re working with here…”

        Just because I jumped OFF the ‘must have latest kit upgrade cos newer kit means better pictures’, you didn’t have to be insultive with your response. So far as I’m concerned, you’ve now made yourself and any opinion you might offer worthless of my attention. Enjoy your back busting CaNikon…

        • Dave

          +1

          When I read comments that oppose yours I wonder where these people see the difference – I mean in a relevant meaning, not technically. I own a FF camera, but I have to admit that there are more important things than sensor size only. And I believe Fuji knows, where the relevance lies: It has to do with the photographers control over his equipment, not the other way around.

        • westin

          Oh, now I understand. You haven’t grown up to the point to have a rational conversation yet.

    • sansa

      I agree! I mean, let’s get real: I challenge anyone to tell the difference between your cat photos shot with full frame and your cat photos shot with APS-C. There is clearly no gain for your cat photos. Why go through the ‘hassle’ of full frame for your cat photos.

  • Andy

    Good to hear

  • soundimageplus

    Absolutely the sensible way to go and what I suspected would happen and also what I hoped would happen. The current APS-C lens range is superb and to get involved in making a whole set of new lenses with slow roll outs always struck me as crazy. Even more so if you imagine how big the lenses would be. I’ve got a Sigma 35mm f/1.4 for my A7 and A7r and it’s monstrous. If people want FF then there are now plenty of options and if Fuji went that route that would loose the size / weight advantages of the Fuji X system.

    FF has it’s uses and I’m sure a 35mm sized X-Trans sensor would be a wonderful thing. But as far as I’m concerned that’s not why I use Fuji X cameras and lenses. If I want bigger and bulkier and larger files then I have cameras that give me that, but that’s not why I’ve got 3 Fuji X cameras and 9 lenses.

    • HF

      Agree.
      From your experience with landscape photography, do you prefer PhotoNinja, Capture One Pro or Irident to produce accurate foliage?

      • soundimageplus

        PhotoNinja is good. But I really like the updated Iridient with the film profiles.

        • D

          Does Iridient still have colour-artifact issues? And, are the film profiles comparable to the ones in-camera? I still find the in-camera converter produces the best results, but is limited to saving as jpeg, which is not optimal. If Iridient can resolve the colour-artifact issues while retaining sharpness, it would be a great option. Especially if the film profiles have been done very well.

          • soundimageplus

            I liked IR, but I thought the colour wasn’t accurate. There was a ‘faded’ type look which is common with these dcraw type converters. However the new Fuji profiles have improved that considerably. If you haven’t tried it there is a free trial and you can assess the profiles for yourself. It works for me.

          • D

            Thanks, I will give it a try again.

      • Alfa Laval

        I’ve tried them all and none of them can produce accurate foliage. That’s not because they are all bad, it’s because of the x-trans sensor (and to the same extent) massive raw file-cooking. Btw….. X-A1 performs equally bad, regardless of what raw converter you use.

        • hexx

          that comment regarding X-A1 is interesting, I thought that due to the use of standard CFA those problems would disappear (i’ve never used X-A1)

          • HF

            I tried all of them yesterday and compared to my D610. What I got of the newest beta of PhotoNinja was excellent, no discernible foliage smearing, whereas LR (clearly) and CO7 (slightly) showed it. I will buy PhotoNinja now.

    • hexx

      your sigma 35/1.4 is lens designed for SLR cameras not mirror less – that’s why it’s big ;)

      • soundimageplus

        Well I’d be interested to see the size of a 35mm f/1.4 with equivalent optics lens for a FF mirrorless camera.

        • hexx

          Leica Lux 35/1.4, although, if you have Art in A-mount and that huge adapter for A7 which turns it into SLT you would gain AF – but then what’s the point of a small camera ;)

  • jay2k

    great stuff. At a time when i am thinking m43 might be the next camera for me purely on weight having made the moved to fuji Xt1 recently.

  • ste787

    if it is still the same 16Mp sensor as X-E2. They can say bye bye to many supporters.

    • Eric Duminil

      Why?

      • Michael

        Fuji already makes medium format lenses for Hasselblad so it would not be such a stretch to make the jump to medium format. I was hoping to get the x-pro 2 with a FF but unless it is mind numbingly better that the other “X” cameras I may just (yes) settle on a discounted x-e2 and get the 10-24 and be done woith it.

        • http://flickr.com/offstandard Offstandard

          the x-pro series are for those that still like to use an optical viewfinder. If the x-e2 is fine for you then you don’t have that innate old-man in you to want to have an OVF.

          • Michael

            In all honesty I do prefer the OVF over the EVF. If the xpro 2 looked like the x-100 but bigger I think it would be just about perfect, I never really liked the look of the XP1. It reminded me of the Leica M5 (ugly duckling) were as the x-100 IMO is one of the nicest looking cameras ever made.

          • D

            That is a pretty silly comment. Have you tried shooting with an EVF in the bright sunlight. I was at Ocean Beach in San Francisco a few months ago, shooting in the bright sunlight, and the OVF in the X-Pro 1 made the experience much better. Thus, there are advantages for both.

          • http://flickr.com/offstandard Offstandard

            your comment doesn’t seem to contradict what I said… saying it in tongue and cheek… it was supposed to be silly, unless you really think only “innate old-man” use OVFs :p

    • D

      I agree. If it is APS-C, it must have new sensor, not just modifications to the same old sensor. Hopefully they will use the organic sensor, as I would need an improvement in image quality to justify an upgrade. A brighter, larger EVF/OVF and 1/8000th of second shutter speed are also necessary. I would also like to see ISO 100 as base ISO.

      With how long they have taken, I am expecting significant improvements. The organic sensor, if it truly will have exceptional dynamic range, would make it a very attractive upgrade – far more attractive than full frame.

      If the rumor about Fuji releasing a medium format camera is true, that would be very smart. Keep the X-Pro 2 APS-C and introduce a pro-level camera with a significant improvement in image quality, as medium format instead of full frame, as the difference between APS-C and medium format would be significant.

      • ReadyorNot?

        especially, increase the flash sync from 1/180 to 320 as usually common (d800, d7100, a7,em1) and new wireless radio transmitting flash (units)….

        double sd card slot

        3.5mm headphone not 2.5mm

        fuji needs a competitve flash sytm in comparison to nikon cls and canon speedlite …!!

        • GCosta

          I’m not a camera engineer, but does anyone know if it’s possible to have a hybrid shutter that the X-Pro can implement to allow it to reach 1/8,000 and flash sync above 1/180? If the current shutter speed limitations are mechanical limitations, can the electronic shutter take over for the higher shutter speeds?

          • ageha

            Electronic shutters are slower.

      • mcastein

        If they do this i will ditch all my dslr gear, this is what I would like to go full fuji. I think your post is spot on.

    • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

      The different interviews from Fuji staff give hope there: it seems clear they don’t want to release a Pro2 without significant improvements.

  • Windchaser

    APSC sensor + IBIS = all I need.

    • nwcs

      And basically make everyone pay for OIS again in lenses that already have it?

    • hexx

      IBIS would be nice for use with legacy lenses, or for those who use video features on cameras.

      • nwcs

        The only advantage I could think of for IBIS is adapted lenses. But who knows how many people are actually using adapted lenses?

        • hexx

          all fuji shooters i’ve met so far have had fuji lenses, with sony shooters though, i’ve seen mostly people with SLR lenses on them – sony would probably benefit more. i almost bought a7r – until I handled it. it’s way too small for me and the placement of shutter release would need some getting used to – not bad camera but doesn’t feel as nice in hand like my x-pro1

  • pega

    can’t wait to see the (specs of the) new sensor!

  • robert

    Good! Glad to hear they stayed true to the concept.

  • Ortbital

    A little disappointing. Not a deal-breaker but I was hoping that an amazing company like Fuji would do full-frame ‘the right way’ and put other makers (cough cough…Leica, Sony…ahem) to shame.

    • D

      One of the problems with going full frame is that they would likely have to use the same sensor as the A7 or A7r, both of which have colour-shift issues with wide-angle lenses.

      If they introduce a medium format camera, which they are rumoured to do, it would be a better pro-level option than full frame, as the image quality would be superior. If they could do so at a price point below $5k for the body, it would likely be a success not just with pros, but also with those who are willing to spend over $3k on the 5D mkiii/D800E.

      If the organic sensor will be all that they are making it out to be, and the X-Pro 2 comes with it, it will satisfy the image quality needs and wants of most.

      • Dave

        +1

        APS-C and MF makes more sense than introducing FF. The difference in IQ is just not big enough to justify a FF system. APS-C is already good enough for most people and will further improve.

        • hexx

          yep, in full agreement

    • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

      a full frame X200 could still shame a few camera makers, especially if they make another mini-system like the X100 and the two converters.

    • nwcs

      Bragging rights don’t tend to lead to profit in a declining market.

  • Jonavin

    Will they showcase a new APS-C sensor? Organic?

    • D

      Hopefully…

  • Plextor

    I love it when you talk dirty :-)

  • CRB

    Great!!!

  • Tobias

    Would not have made a lot of sense to start a new FF system. I have Sony A7 since the start but haven’t shot a photo yet that I couldn’t have made with an APS-C camera.

  • Lagana’

    in the meanwhile sony a 7 is the king of the mirrorless… goodbye fuji XD

    • Vit

      Name 3 good FE lenses for your king. An easy task, eh?

      • Lagana’

        55 1.8 35 2.8 24-70 4… optically corrected not software corrected like fujy’s ;-)

        • http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk23/ dirk
        • Vit

          FE 24-70mm f/4 ZA is not software corrected? And it is optically good and fast? Is there any OTHER FE 24-70mm f/4 ZA on the market?
          And the 3 you mentioned are not overpriced also(comparing to canon and fuji)?

  • Vit

    Remembering that FF is not only a bit cleaner high ISO and some more pixels, but bulky and more expensive lenses. Look at sony’s a7/a7r/a7s – fantastic cameras and slow costly lenses. I believe fuji’s R&D will manage to produce some new featured aps-c, like they did with X-trans.

  • john

    reason why? because i did not wanna buy a heavy nikon/canon/ sony full frame dslr. I am still waiting for a compact fujifilm full frame camera.

  • g2sleeper

    If true, this is great news!

  • leo

    “if user demand FF, really, I want to hear the reason why.”

    oh my god, is he serious about that? embarrassing.

    • http://flickr.com/offstandard Offstandard

      the problem is that many users DEMAND FF, but I would say most are not willing to pay the price once they come out… FF cameras are dominated by Canon and Nikon (think professional big companies, journalists, studios, events, landscape, natgeo, etc). Fuji doesn’t have the financial backing to compete with them (well, maybe financially with Nikon, but not in the FF field) and they are still trying to gain ground financially with their current lineup.

      It would be a horrible business decision to jump into FF “just because” when there aren’t enough TRUE demand (people who will actually purchase a $2500+ body).

      perfect example. Everybody was asking for an “old school” FF camera, aka the Nikon Df… so how many was willing to shell out for that price? if it was around $2000 I “might” have…

      And there’s no way that Fuji can do a Hybrid VF, FF, PRO camera at $2000

      • Juan

        Really interesting point. I agree with you in part, but the sony A7 is not so expensive, and prices will drop… Bulky lenses is a matter of a matter of physics at this time. I still bet for aps-c in fuji

        • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

          and we are still waiting to see lenses for the A7…

          • hexx

            they announced wide f/4 zoom and there’s large aperture prime and a macro coming – not bad.
            the only problem is that by the time they will have good selection of lenses we will be probably on A10 :)

          • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

            with a new mount at that time, maybe :-D

        • nwcs

          Sony is following the Amazon Kindle model. Sell the body at a loss (or near it) and make it up in other areas.

          • hexx

            Kindle model is about ecosystem and to provide retail shop in a small device – that’s the whole idea

          • nwcs

            I said they’re following it. Didn’t say they are doing it right…

    • Peter

      That is actually a valid question. They need to know if it is ISO sensitivity that people want, or more depth of field with slower lenses, or both, or something else entirely. Before the X100, I’m sure people would have told them “I need a DSLR, everything else is useless.” instead of “I want a camera with superb image quality and direct manual control. If you only throw preconceived notions at them, already dictating which solution to your problem they should take, that leaves them with no room for innovation.

      Also, I do get the impression that there are a lot of people out there who desperately want full frame just for the sake of it. I’m not at all implying that you are one of them, I just see so many folks who assume it would magically and instantly make all their pictures better, where for most uses and under reasonably good lighting conditions, that will unfortunately not be the case. For those people, it would just make the cameras and lenses heavier and more expensive than necessary, possibly to the extent that the very people who asked for them wouldn’t even buy them.

      • leo

        well, peter, you do not get the point at all. the question is arrogant, manipulative and tendentious – so please do not blame me for dictating but feel free to present your many-folks-psychoanalysis.

        i do get the impression that there are a lot of people out there who desperately want full frame just for getting the right format factor.

  • AL

    please don’t make FF sensor, just focus make Fuji Xtrans Sensor better than FF or special. If user demand about quality; please make big sensor like medium format.

  • Per K

    Only if it is a new sensor! With improved resolution. It would significantly bring down the negative effects of X-trans algorithms I believe – and the positives will remain.
    The X T1 is the first Fuji ILC that deserves to be called “mature” – but with the physical sensor being “past mature” (That old Sony 16mpix). Sony goes 24 mpix and so has Nikon. Canon are 20mpix.
    (The major downside of going FF, D800, is that you get spoiled by resolution, detail, DR, high ISO :-) 16mpix APS-C or m43 just don´t do it for you anymore.

    • Jukka Saarikko

      Couldn’t agree more about the D800. As much as I’d like to ditch it due to it’s size & weight, and take some lighter Fuji -setup instead, I just can’t get pass the thought of how much that would be downgrading in IQ. Despite all the comments here about how the gap between APS-C and FF is now pretty much non-existent, when looking at photos taken with D800 + 85mm 1.4G vs. X-T1 +56mm 1.2, I’m not convinced no matter how much I’d like to be.

      • hexx

        …because some of those comments are from people who don’t own d800…

        • Jukka Saarikko

          That is true. And like someone else said above, it’s definitely a downside of owning a D800.

      • Fabio Amodeo

        But you can’t buy a wide angle that is distortion and flare free like the Fujinon 14 for the Nikon. Not even the Zeiss 21. Just like you can’t buy a T/S 24 for the Fuji, as it does not exist. It’s all a matter of jobs, requirements, specifics. The perfect camera for every job has never existed. It’s a matter of compromises.

    • nwcs

      After 16 months with my D800 I wasn’t feeling too spoiled by resolution, detail, DR, etc. But if you need to convince yourself…

  • Scott

    Wheaaaaaa lol Good If they think they will make money they will make it Now A MF AF would make some for them.

  • Tv

    I have noticed a trend towards aps c or m43 for a portable system and a medium format system if you you want a larger system with bigger lenses and larger files. Perhaps fuji will, like pentax, skip full frame and go for medium format instead of full frame.

  • Fiddlergene

    Great news. I always liked the xp1 OVF best of all, but the new technology in an xp2 would be amazing!

  • JWC

    That is good news. I think Fuji should focus and commit to APSC just like Pana and Olympus are committing to m43.

  • popeyoni

    Of course!
    A full frame X-Pro2 makes little sense at this point. It would need a whole new set of lenses and those lenses would be as large as any DSLR lenses.

    On the other hand, a full frame X100 would be more practical.

    • http://willshootpeopleforfood.tumblr.com/ Gabriele Correddu

      Well, if Leica can keep the lenses small, so can Fuji…

      • hexx

        i wouldn’t call T-mount lenses small – and those are the ones we need to compare as they’re AF lenses

      • nwcs

        They can be small if they have tiny apertures.

      • popeyoni

        Leica lenses don’t have:
        1) Autofocus
        2) Image Stabilization
        3) Long focal lengths

    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk23/ dirk

      There could be a considerable advantage in size for wideangle lenses.

  • Happy shooting

    This is GREAT NEWS! I can now make up my decision to get Leica M and use the M type glass on both system! However, it will take a huge leap for fuji before I purchase again from Fuji….

    • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

      farewell and good luck with Leica

    • hexx

      In latest interview (leicarumors) they also said there is a possibility of FF T-mount Leica in the future

    • nwcs

      Sounds like a win-win to me.

  • Rick

    Very good news, and very smart of Fuji. I will likely buy one if it is APS-C, but not if full frame. Why? Lenses!

  • G_J

    YESSSS!!! Excellent News!!!

  • kalvin

    Great news … well, that is great rumor !

  • nwcs

    Sanity prevails! Yes!

  • hexx

    let’s hope that the rumour about possible MF camera is correct, then it would make sense to have APS-C line and on top MF line. Otherwise I can’t really see where they can go in terms of APS-C, 24mp maybe.

    • nwcs

      Megapixels are not the only measure (thankfully) of a sensor. There’s so much that can be done to improve the Fuji cameras (and all others). For example:

      1. Improve ergonomics
      2. Really nail the details on the camera (buttons, dial resistance, menus, etc.)
      3. Improve the image pipeline post-sensor (where most of the real image magic happens anyway)
      4. Be the first to have backside illuminated APS sensor
      5. Publish the spec on the camera API and flash API and let third parties write plugins to enhance camera function and third parties fill in gaps on things like lighting – would take them far beyond the other people
      6. Come up with new microlenses for their color filter array that work better than today
      7. Autofocus! Autofocus! Autofocus!
      8. Improve the viewfinder (both optical and electronic)

      And this is just off the top of my head. Thank goodness megapixels aren’t the main predictor of a camera’s usefuless or quality.

      • hexx

        Those are all fair points, but ultimately it’s all about IQ. Unless they have organic sensor ready for showtime (I doubt that) I can’t really imagine what would make me personally buying X-Pro2 and selling X-Pro1 – I don’t shoot sports.
        The king of APS-C in terms of IQ is Sigma and they are miles away.

        • hexx

          one more thing – I don’t want to offend owners of other X series cameras – but X-Pro1 is the one and always has been when it comes to quality, the only down side is outdated AF system and EVF but the rest is in my opinion better.

          • D

            I totally agree…It is the perfect size for me. But, for some reason, most want tiny cameras.

        • nwcs

          You know, I used to think it’s all about IQ. I don’t think that anymore. I think it is about the camera not getting in the way of a picture. Image Quality is a rather vague aesthetic concept subject to much interpretation. I’d rather have a camera that doesn’t get in my way than gives me a bit more theoretical image quality.

          • hexx

            i have already cameras like that – Leica M6 and Mamiya 6 – yes they’re old film cameras :) fuji isn’t far from perfection, to me x-pro1 was already perfect in terms of handling (well, in the beginning i kept pressing Q button quite often but aftermarket grip solved that problem)

      • JL Williams

        “5. Publish the spec … on flash API and let third parties … fill in gaps on things like lighting – would take them far beyond the other people”

        Amen to that. Fuji’s flash system is pants, and they don’t seem to have a lot of interest in improving it — but open up the protocol and I’ll bet others could and would.

        Lighting control in general is still very primitive in photo gear; it’s like the 1890s, when you couldn’t call someone else on the telephone unless he used the same phone company you used.

  • wilco

    I don’t think Fuji will be inconsiderate since they have made a lot of lenses for APS-C and there is no FF camera from Fuji at least another 5 years.

  • Alim

    Fantiastic news really. So glad as I’ve bought a bunch of the lenses and was really looking forward to an xpro2. Now all they need to do is keep the OVF and I’ll be committed to buying one from now.

  • Scott

    If rumours be true, I would be more partial to a APS-C in an X-Pro, and if they feel up to it, the medium format sensor in an X-Master 1.

    Full frame, pashaw, its for tourists.

  • JL Williams

    As someone who’s about to buy into the Fuji system, I’m relieved to hear this. I don’t want Fuji taking its eye off the ball (and its engineering focus off the X-system) when there’s so much scope for possible improvement.

    For me one of the biggest appeal factors for Fuji is its range of wide-aperture, fixed-focal-length lenses. Getting involved with a 36x24mm “nostalgia format” camera (I won’t call it “full frame” because one format size isn’t any “fuller” per se than another) would force Fuji to reallocate resources to designing lenses for that size.

    That would have to hurt further development of the current X system, which has several obvious gaps (a lack of fixed focal length lenses longer than 56mm, no image stabilization except in a few zooms, and a rather primitive dedicated flash system, to name three.)

    The rumored fixed-lens, larger-sensor camera makes a lot more sense. It would serve a niche market that currently doesn’t have any competitors, and it wouldn’t require ongoing development of lenses and accessories.

  • Rhondar

    Fujifilm has no intension for a FF camera, because of the lenses they produced for X-system does not cover any ff sensor… they are working on A medium format camera…

    • nwcs

      I doubt it. It was based on the sketchiest of rumors. Probably the quality level of me emailing the admin under a pseudonym with a “rumor.”

      • Rhondar

        This is not a rumor btw…

        • nwcs

          It’s not a rumor that they’re working on a digital MF camera? I’d like to see your sources on that. A film MF? I can see that but not the same.

  • http://willshootpeopleforfood.tumblr.com/ Gabriele Correddu

    Good, I don’t have to abandon my D600, then

  • Alex Reusch

    Great news! APS-C. Now only hoping for the organic sensor.

    • nwcs

      It likely won’t be. Little evidence or reason to believe it is ready for mass production. But I’d love to be proved wrong.

      • hexx

        the same here, also would like to be wrong about it – but it’s been quiet for some time about that tech, on both sides – panasonic and fuji (i keep an eye on m43 rumours for that reason)

    • ageha

      Don’t believe in every hype the admin starts here.

  • http://2epicbits.com/ theSUBVERSIVE

    At least, the FF XPRO2 rumor that made no eff sense – although many believed in it – is dismissed. Just like the $1800 price tag for the A7s was dismissed the other day, that made no sense as well.

    All the interviews and reports said otherwise but the FF rumor was still there.

    For me, it may be a fixed lens FF like the X100 on the way, but I hardly thought Fuji was going to go FF without testing waters first, moreover, it needs a completely new mount, different flange distance, probably. Fuji would need to find a way to at least make the FF mount fullt compatible with the APS-C actual X-mount.

    But I do think that the fear shared by some was nonsense as well. Fuji has showed their commitment and there is nothing they did that would make me believe that if they so wished to go FF as well as APS-C, that they would abandon or lose focus of what they already have. They are not Sony.

    Sony innovates, no doubt about it, but at the cost of sometimes, completely changing their mind and kind of abandoning old projects, until they repurpose it. It happened with A-mount, it happened to NEX cameras but Sony has not done that and I hardly think that, except nitpickers and haters, can have a really big complain over the improvements Fuji has been bringing each new firmware or camera model.

    • hexx

      X100 like FF camera would do it for me, especially if current wide/tele converters would work – as an ultimate travel compact. I’ve seen results from friend’s RX1 and the IQ is really better than what I can get from X-Pro1.

      • Fabio Amodeo

        That’s because mating a fixed lens and a sensor can give better results than having a sensor, good as it can be, with different lenses and different lightpaths in front. The RX1 is a clear proof of that. But the R&D applied to a small volume product is reflected by the price.

      • http://2epicbits.com/ theSUBVERSIVE

        I don’t think that current converters woud work, they were specially made for the X100, which take into account the lens elements and design, the focal length, sensor size, etc. They would need to make new ones for a FF fixed lens camera.

    • French Fries

      If Fuji is smart they skip the whole FF fudge and go for MF with fixed lens first. Makes more sense to kill off the CaNikon empire.

      • hexx

        fixed lens – i’m not that sure about it for one reason – it won’t be cheap and i can’t imagine many people paying a lot of money for one angle of view, interchangeable would make more sense. you don’t buy MF camera every 2 years, more like every 4-5.

        • hexx

          but then again, i switched back in 2011 from SLR to X100 :)

      • http://2epicbits.com/ theSUBVERSIVE

        I’ve seen some rumors from Canon side, very low rated though, it says that Canon and Fuji may be in the works to some kind of partnership, more likely that Canon would start support X-mount and produce some lenses.

  • Photomaniac

    It could be the case that Sony won’t sell them FF sensor……….. they will only sell to Nikon if Nikon promise not to be direct competition with sony…….

    • hexx

      i thought that semiconductor part is separate from their imaging business

      • tim

        It more likely that Fuji can’t afford to build a new system based around FF. And anyway, APS-C is enough in the same way that 4/3 is enough.

        Sony is happy to sell to whoever wants a sensor.

        • hexx

          yep, they’re in business to make money

          • Jonneke Vleeswaar

            In fact Sony NEEDS the money. And they need it fast.
            They are on the verge of being broke and already have been rated junk on Wall Street.

          • hexx

            Wall Street are bunch of w**s :) and all their analysts too

      • ageha

        Of course it is. They will sell to anyone as long as they see money.

    • French Fries

      Thats utter nonsense – FYI: Sony sells to more companies and not only to Nikon.

      There could be some OEM contracts for exclusives, but none will say that Sony is not allowed to sell to Fuji.

  • X100User

    May be i am the odd one out here… For me it is the 3D pop / color-depth / dynamic range of FF can’t achieved on APS-C… Still for me, XPro2 with APS-C with all the improvements possible, many of them as listed above, still a good continuation of the X-Series… but what i am looking forward to (and holding my breath for) is the Fuji’s answer to Sony RX1 (i.e., FF+ 35mm FOV + Fixed Lens)..for all RX1 is worth, it’s usability is far from what Fuji has achieved with X-series … I hope i am not the only one to look forward to FF successor of X100…

    • photomaniac

      Same here… it’s the pop that FF buyers are looking for…

    • Jukka Saarikko

      Couldn’t agree more with the first two sentences.

    • nwcs

      That “pop” is purely psychological. Take this challenge: http://guesstheformat.com/photo

      • DrunkenRant

        He is really just referring to DOF, though he doesn’t know what he is actually thinking about. Fuji would just need to release some F/1 or F/.95 lenses for the same FF “pop”.

        • nwcs

          Or use a longer focal length and change the DOF by changing perspective and stepping back a step or 2. Most DOF difference between APS and FF is miniscule.

          • Jukka Saarikko

            Wouldn’t really call “miniscule”… http://andrewvanbeek.com/fuji-vs-canon-lenses/

          • nwcs

            Looks pretty minor to me. And how would that comparison be at 1:1 macro? At 400mm telephoto?

          • Jukka Saarikko

            I wasn’t talking about macro or 400mm telephoto. I was talking about this test I just linked to you, because you were saying that the difference in DOF is “miniscule”. But if you’re really saying that you can’t see the difference, then I think you’re not being completely honest here…

          • nwcs

            And you missed the word “Most” when I posted that. Most DOF difference is minuscule. The rest is fairly minor.

          • Jukka Saarikko

            If you call that difference in shallow DOF in a comparison link I provided a minuscule or even minor, then you might want to check your eyesight…Check out the brick wall photo, can’t see the difference both behind and in front of the subject?

          • nwcs

            I think you’re majoring in the minors.

          • Jukka Saarikko

            I think you’re in denial.

          • Harry

            Why are you so obsessed with Super fast aperture lens? Ini reality, if people showed to you 2 or 2 pictures using more or the same lens aperture, without telling which setting for which pics, can you really tell?

            For god sake get a leica with f0.95 lens if all care about is dof for FF. Seriously.

            For your info, im using D600 and xpro-1

          • Jukka Saarikko

            I didn’t quite understand what kind of comparison you were trying to explain with yout example. Something with “2 or 2 pictures” with same apeture? But if you meant 2 photos with different apertures, I suggest you check the link example comparing 56mm 1.2 vs 85mm 1.2. At least there the answer is yes, one can definitely tell the difference.
            And telling me to get a Leica is pretty much the same if I’d tell you to just get a cameraphone, if size was all you cared. I NEVER (read that again, never) said the DOF is the only reason keeping me from changing gear. I’ve said it’s the overall image quality. “Seriously!”

      • sperdynamite

        Cute test, but some of us want the ability to achieve both deep focus and thin focus photographs without having to resort to telephoto lenses, and even more, will hopefully have our work seen outside of the world of small web jpgs. Get the raws in LR, and the differences are there.

        • nwcs

          So what you’re implying is that FF is needed for very specialist type photos only?

          After 4 years of a D700/D800 and many years of 35mm film I just don’t see that it matters, in the end, as much as people want to believe.

          • Jukka Saarikko

            So…Just to confirm I’m understanding correctly what you’re saying: You have owned a D800, and you are saying that the difference in, for example, a photo with D800 + 85mm 1.4G vs X-T1 + 56mm 1.2, both wide open (or even closed down) isn’t noticeable? In sharpness, DOF…pretty much in every aspect?

          • nwcs

            You’re putting words in my mouth. I said it didn’t matter except for specialist applications. I think the FF “advantage” is far far overplayed. Seriously, other than cutesy images would you use the canon 85 1.2 at 1,2 in a studio? Not if you want sharp images. Certainly you wouldn’t want razor thin DOF for the vast majority of macro and landscape pictures. And after a certain focal length there isn’t that much difference in DOF telephoto. You’re hyperfocusing on a narrow range of applications.

            I have never said that there isn’t a place for 35mm frames. I have said that people invent attributes that are more based on feeling and emotion and self-justification than actual fact and usefulness.

          • Jukka Saarikko

            Just a quick glance at the 85mm 1.4G group, and it’s clear as a day that people like to use those lenses wide open a lot. Studio or not, but that’s the way it is. The point is, even if you wouldn’t use them wide open in studio or for macro, it’s definitely not just some narrow field of photography. And you just can’t get the same results with current Fuji gear. That’s a fact.
            Here’s a link, have a look what I mean. https://www.flickr.com/groups/nikkor85g/

          • nwcs

            I had a 85 f1.4 AF-D for about 2 years so I’m fairly familiar with the look of it. I’ve also seen a lot of tests where people were debating between it and the 1.8 AF-D. 2/3 stop is nice in some situations but not in all of them.

            In numismatics there is a saying that ownership always adds a grade. That is, when you own a coin you always believe it grades one step more than it really does. So it’s hard to believe when it’s objectively graded.

            I think this whole silly FF debate is similar. People embellish the “advantages” and downgrade the attributes of the other.

          • Rolleiflex

            Same should be applied for APSC users. They believe that FF does not have much, if at all, advantage over cropped sensor. We’re all trying to convince the others our choice is the best. If Fuji goes FF, I see it as an advantage since now we have more option to choose from. I hope they are not stuck like m43. Just a thought.

          • nwcs

            Now that I can agree with. I’m all for options just not the devoted cult of 35mm.

          • Jukka Saarikko

            I’m not sure about the “devoted cult of 35mm”. For example, personally I own both, APS-C (x100s) and FF (D800), so I guess I’m not that devoted. I guess reading this forum, you could claim that there’s also a devoted cult of APS-C, with people (you for example) downgrading the attributes of FF, while embellishing the advantages of APS-C. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve never said that you can’t get excellent photos with APS-C. All I’ve been saying is, that you can’t get the same results with it, than with FF. Not necessarily a bad thing if certain looks are not your cup of tea, or you don’t make large prints of your photos. But for me personally, at the moment it would be downgrading in IQ, though upgrading in terms of weight and size. Also, you say you’re all for options, but still you’re arguing against FF all the time.

          • nwcs

            No, I’m against the idea that Fuji has to do it, that FF has mythical qualities of 3d “pop” or similar, and that there’s this huge profitable market for it. The reality is that a lot of people want it, most wouldn’t buy it, and many couldn’t show that it makes a photographic difference for the shots they take or hoe they are ultimately consumed.

    • Greg

      I don’t understand. The best advantage of APS-C is you can shoot at larger apertures with greater DoF. On full frame most focal lengths are near useless at 1.8 or below. Personally, I am not a big fan of ultra blurry images where even the subject is mostly blurred–save for an eyelash or two.

      • hexx

        unfortunately that’s what is these days ‘in’ – ultra shallow DoF for the sake of it. i thought always that it should be about the subject or what you’re trying to tell with your photos

        • Greg

          I don’t know how anyone gets any use out of the lower apertures on FF. I found them to be mostly useless when I was shooting with 5d’s. That look can have a certain appeal I suppose–but it’s quickly becoming overdone. It’s kind of a novelty.
          I love shooting the Fuji primes around 2.0-2.8. Good deal of subject isolation without the whole image being a blur.

          • Jukka Saarikko

            Take a look at this flickr pool. Considering many of those photos are shot wide open at f1.4, you still think that with lower aperture “the subject is mostly blurred”, and you still “don’t know how anyone gets any use out of the lower apertures on FF”? https://www.flickr.com/groups/afs85mmf14g/

          • Greg D

            Interesting. Is there any way to see what aperture was used for each shot? Clearly they are shot at greatly varying apertures.
            A lot of them exhibit exactly what I’m talking about. I’m sure a lot of people like that. I find it distracting and useless. Sometimes I feel people forget that at end of the day we are talking about an art form. It is completely subjective. What is reality to me may be meaningless to you.
            My main experience I am drawing from is my old 5d setup. I personally did not like using most primes below 2.0 with it due to incredibly thin DoF. For the majority of my photography I do not like that aesthetic. As a primarily natural/ambient light candid photographer I like APS-C for increased light gathering with better DoF.

          • Jukka Saarikko

            Sure there is. Just click the photo larger, and on the right column, scroll down where you see “i” (as info) which you can click if the camera settings aren’t already visible. This photo, for example, was shot with f1.6. I wouldn’t say that the “whole subject is blurry”, and that the aperture is useless here, or that it makes the photo distracting. I understand that it might not suit for everyone or for every occasion, but my point was to prove that your initial comment about the usefulness of those wide apertures was quite harsh and not true.
            https://www.flickr.com/photos/bearwu/14161063445/in/pool-afs85mmf14g

          • Jukka Saarikko
  • Riz

    I guess i should keep my xe1, FF sensor is better for me.. More detail/ richness, better low light, will wait for Fuji FF maybe xpro3

  • hexx

    would really make sense to have aps-c line with x-pro2 on top and then medium format line built from ground up and properly – lenses with leaf shutters to allow high flash sync speeds.

  • Photomaniac

    Too bad contax is not in the game anymore… the design is actually great… small lens, full frame, auto focus (driven by body)… if at this day they can still be in the game, that’s the machine which many would love.

  • jo

    …and when is this actually to be launched?

  • DouglasGottlieb

    Good news. Hopefully, that “organic” sensor in APS size will blow away FF in terms of DR and low noise, high ISO while keeping the existing mount and lens line. Then the new medium format line can improve on both the organic and FF Bayer cameras with the ultimate high resolution files in an X100s type shooting experience. A year later, Fuji can introduce an interchangeable lens model. I’d also love to see a tiny X30 (or X40) camera with an organic sensor and great viewfinder that could match the current XTrans APS quality. Miniaturization sounds like the “organic” sensor’s revolutionary leap.

    • hexx

      Why fixed lens MF camera, why cripple it from start? interchangeable straight away with 3 primes at launch – wide/normal/portrait and they would sell well.

      • DouglasGottlieb

        Starting with a fixed lens, high end camera follows the pattern of success established with the X100 line. It minimizes risk, letting Fuji see if there’s a market for medium format before fully committing resources to the format. It lessens pressure to create lots of lenses immediately. One could argue that Sony actually did this as well with the RX1 FF fixed lens preceding the A7 range. Inexplicably, that camera is still priced like a Leica, while the interchangeable line is deceptively affordable. I’m very interested in the Fuji MF, although I’m not sure MF will ever go mainstream. “Small sensors” (APS and even M43) are so good right now and the vast majority of consumers are only shooting to share online or print at sizes under 20 inches, so we’ll likely never see the benefit of MF. But like Apple, Fuji creates that brand lust through amazing features, build quality and industrial design and style that’s hard to resist…

        • hexx

          “Starting with a fixed lens, high end camera follows the pattern of success established with the X100 line.”

          that would make sense if we weren’t talking about MF – that won’t be as cheap as X100. I might be wrong, but I can’t imagine many photographers investing (if 645Z price is anything to go by) £6000+ to fixed lens camera.

          • hexx

            and yes, it is an investment – most MF backs are trade-ins = that’s how you move up or keep up to date

  • dcisive

    I can only imagine if Fuji really did their homework and took their time and made a Medium Format X-Trans sensor with the control of the X-T1 and lenses as superb as their current crop ranging from 10mm to 300mm they would carve a niche for themselves NOBODY could touch.

    • hexx

      just no X-T1 form factor – i’d rather get Pentax 645Z than that – sorry

      • http://flickr.com/offstandard Offstandard

        I actually want a Twin Lens Reflex top-down view form factor, they were the best for “candid” shots.

        http://static.bhphoto.com/images/multiple_images/images500x500/IMG_169140.jpg

        • hexx

          articulated LCD – welcome to current date :D

          but, I still use waist level finder on my Hassy, mostly for landscapes though

          • http://flickr.com/offstandard Offstandard

            the ergonomics of modern cameras are stuck on “behind lens” It’s really hard to hold an SLR/compact style camera waste level and trying to shoot/change settings ;)

        • hexx

          I believe my mum still has somewhere at home lubitel 2 :) will try to find it next time i visit her, just for fun

        • Augsburg57

          I would love to see this format too. Something easy to hold at waist level, view, focus and adjust.

          • hexx

            it would be hard with digital sensors, that was the reason i bought pme for my Hassy (45 degree finder and also split prism focusing screen) because i couldn’t tell even with magnifier if i nailed focus. until i got it i used smaller apertures, or zone focusing if you like just to have higher rate of keepers. on film i was fine just with waist level finder.

          • Augsburg57

            The TLR film cameras of yore had optical viewfinders and controls set up for looking down on the camera at waist level. Possibly with a high res LCD display on the camera top, the issue of focus that you mention could be solved. Unlike an LCD hinged on the back of a camera, the top mount allows the flip up shields to prevent glare and reflection. We are able to discern good focus on a retina display laptop or iPad screen that are at arms length. So maybe the same could be done for a digital camera with a top mounted screen. A pipe dream, I know. But it would be awesome and completely different.

        • DouglasGottlieb

          TLR form factor would be fun, but a tilting screen sort of gets you there. I’d love to see tilting touch screens on all of the Fuji bodies, as long as they fold tightly against the back, adding little overall width. Tap to focus and tap to focus and shoot is really helpful on M43 systems.

  • arhmatic

    GOOD!
    Coming back to senses…

    In an unrelated rumors, the next micro 4/3 cameras will surprisingly feature a micro 4/3 sensors.

  • svx94

    If Fuji wants to go into large format, that makes sense. I hope they will bring out a digital back for GX680 !

  • Bernardo

    I’m sure that Fuji will have to go to FF someday, because of Sony, because no matter the arguments there will always be the feeling of a “not full” frame with APS. I’m not going to spend more a few thousand €uros to regret it when full frame comes out (even if the APS comes with organic sensor, there’s always the possibility of a full frame organic sensor). I’m going to put my 14mm on eBay (anyone interested?) and keep the “old” XE-1 and 35mm – that don’t have that much value anymore – to use as a “big” compact.

    • nwcs

      Because of Sony? Other than Korea they have an abysmal market share rating. I doubt Fuji is all that worried about them.

      • Bernardo

        Not just for Sony itself, but because they’ve started something that a few years ago no-one thought it would be possible: to do a full frame in a small size (compared to SLR) at a reasonable price (compared to Leica). If they can do it, I believe others will follow …

        • nwcs

          What we don’t know is if they are dumping to gain market share and whether they’ll stand behind the products. And eventually the price was going to go down on 35mm sized cameras. People years ago knew it would eventually happen.

          You see miniaturization all across technologies and electronics. Wasn’t hard to see this coming.

          • Bernardo

            I wouldn’t buy Sony – you’ll never know what they will be investing in tomorrow – but maybe they’ll shake things a little, to awake Canon and Nikon and force other brands (including Fuji) to upgrade.

    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk23/ dirk

      Maybe Fuji is waiting for the organic sensor before they go full frame. Mirrorless cameras can only play their size-advantage really well with wideangle lenses. But on the other hand you have problems with corner performance of wideangle lenses because of the short flange distance. I assume this is already the case with aps-c right now, which is why the 23mm is so big.
      The organic sensor would probably improve the corner performance quite a bit and make the lens design a lot easier and probably more compact.

    • http://www.Quentin-Descotte.com Quentin Descotte

      I guess they’ll release a new series of Full Frame cameras someday. A all new series. So that it seems logic that the X-Pro2 should feature a APS-C sensor. W&S

  • nwcs

    People dreaming of FF or MF, Take the challenge and see if you really know what you think you know.

    http://guesstheformat.com/photo

    • Bernardo

      Nice website, but it would be more interesting to have the same picture done with the different cameras, that would be a fair test.

      • nwcs

        No, I don’t think so. If FF can’t rise to the challenge and be readily apparent in the finished product then maybe it doesn’t have all these fantasmalogical properties people cream over.

    • Photomaniac

      Interesting test indeed, getting about 68% correct. However, this test is missing the point for the following reason:

      1.Many of the pictures have taken in a way without enough information to judge on the distance between subject to camera or subject to background. Some of the pictures is easier to guess as we have correct assumption on the subject such as the width of the road.

      2. For those pictures taken with big F stop value, which perspective can not be judge because of the composition are much easier to be wrong.

      3. it can only be a true test if at least F stop is known or the composition can shows a clear foreground and background.

      I bet if you put two pictures with the same composition and F value, experience photographer can tell at a instance!

      • hexx

        i guess that’s the whole point of that test – to show that without a knowledge of all those technical details, one can have really hard time ‘guessing’ what sensor size was used.

        if printed, i believe it would be much easier, especially on larger papers.

        • nwcs

          Exactly, that’s the whole point. Make the issue about the actual end result of a camera (where it should be) and not on the specifics of how the photo is taken.

          After all, aren’t we using cameras to produce photos and not technical data?

    • romi.foto

      where’s the challenge to print them in large scale or do some significant cropping?

      • nwcs

        Hey, the market is wide open. Sounds like a great opportunity for you to pursue.

    • Jack

      After some practice my correct guess rate stabilised around 70%. So yes, I can tell the difference, obviously. But how am I doing that? I look at the aspect ratio first and the subject matter and field of I view second. Not the image quality. Four thirds and compacts have 4/3 aspect ratio.

      I don’t believe it’s possible to tell the difference based on image quality at this size.

      So the fact that people have a better than 50 guess rate doesn’t prove that there’s a significant visual iq difference.

      • http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk23/ dirk

        In quite some pictures you can also see noise in uniform areas. Only sometimes you are mislead when sensor size difference is small and a large sensor is very old or a small one very new.
        You can also be fooled by post processing. Pushing the exposure in post reduces dynamic range and increases noise.

  • Comapedrosa

    Cuando… Dime cuándo, cuándo, cuándo….

    • Patrick

      quisaz, quisaz, quisaz ;-)

  • Kans

    And last month this site reported from another source that the X-Pro 2 would be full frame. Make up your mind already.

    • hexx

      that’s why the website is called fujirumors not fujifacts ;) it keeps it interesting

    • Patrick

      Hi Kans. You’re right. last month I shared the rumor from a new source. a week after a trusted source said told me to be careful, as the source does not have any information about FF for now. And yesterday, in a night chat session with Japan, the source told me that the X-PRO2 won’t be FF.

      I thought it’s time to speak the final word and to correct that rumor.

      So personally I have no doubts anymore. The new source was wrong and the good old Japanese is correct.

      So, do NOT take it with a grain of salt. X-PRO2 will be ASP-C.

  • http://duncansebastian.wordpress.com Sebastian Boatca

    Glad they stick with APS-C sensor. FF is for those who feel their photography will be outstanding in FF format and it sucked because of a crop sensor.

    • hexx

      or for those who need a bit more headroom in the raw files, does happen that you don’t nail exposure or you want to achieve something else from the file, increased DR (something where FF still has an edge) helps a lot. another point is slightly better control of depth of field or how to move plane of focus and DoF with it, 23mm lens will always render as 23mm lens.

      • hexx

        just an example, i usually take on holidays x-pro1 and 18/2 lens but i also take mamiya 6 with 50/4 lens. when photographing people i always avoid to have some by the edges of the frame with fuji but it doesn’t matter with mamiya – both of the systems give you angle of view like 27mm on FF – so there are advantages

    • Carl

      DOF is extremely increased when using a FF sensor size. This due to the scale of the sensor versus the projected focus plane of the virtual image produced by the lens. You will get strongly noticeable out of focus effects even with 5.6 optics. This you will never notice with an APS-C sized sensor. I used APS-C for many years, then happened to run into a FF housing, not even wanted to change, but when I suddenly rediscovered that strong depth of field control I was totally convinced. The 35mm film had its reason, it’s a perfect scale to bring that effect into the game at just a handy dimension

      • nwcs

        Extremely? No, not extremely. There are some DOF changes but they tend to be very dependent upon focal length and perspective.

        • Carl

          Give it a try in real life use and you will see. Of course focal length and f-stop are influencing DOF as well, but the main influence is the sensor size vs the virtual image size. A bigger sensor has a bigger surface that cuts through the virtual image more extreme than a little sensor that easily can stay within the sharp field of the virtual image.

          • nwcs

            I’ve used FF for years and APS. I think the differences are there but not extremely there. And in some cases so negligible as to not matter. Depends on what you’re shooting. If you’re shooting macro you sure won’t see that extreme difference. Same with telephoto.

          • Carl

            Yes, I agree for extreme long focal lengths or extreme short focussing distance. In both configurations the DOF is extremely shallow so even a smaller APS-C sensor cuts through the sharp area very noticeably.

    • Ratty Mouse

      What an utterly ignorant statement. Your brazen contempt for others is truly astounding.

  • Greg

    This is not surprising. Fuji has already stated why APS-C is the best all around solution for an interchangeable system.

    • sperdynamite

      Because it’s the one they sell.

      • Greg

        Of course. But do you think a fair amount of reasoning and research went into the decision to build an entire system around it? I would wager quite a bit was done. It is the best balance of image quality, size, and depth-of-field.
        I think there are two main factors to consider here. 1 – For most people uses APS-C vs 35mm makes little to no difference. 2 – Given the continued advances in image sensors that difference will only continue decrease.

        • sperdynamite

          I think it had more to do with price placement than anything. Having the system priced at prosumer levels has done a lot to sell cameras. A full frame would have to have been $2k+, limiting the market. I don’t think anyone would argue the whole system should go that route, but it would be nice if high end shooters had the option.

          I wouldn’t be so fast to assume a high quality APS-C image is the same as a FF image. Technology for both progresses, not just APS-C, so the bigger sensor will always have an edge. This is more to do with the way images look when a longer lens covers a wide angle of view, than any kind of technical pixel information though, in my opinion. That’s why I still shoot medium and large format film. I can see the difference between 6×7 and 645, just like I can see the difference between APS-C and 35mm.

          • nwcs

            It may have an edge but can the ultimate *output* of the sensor demonstrate that edge? In other words, it’s fine to say that FF has 1 stop more DR. But can you actually *see* it in the finished product?

          • sperdynamite

            I don’t care about dynamic range (to the extent that it’s acceptable). In fact I never said that it has 1 stop more dynamic range, because some times it won’t. Fuji Velvia has less dynamic range than an APS-C raw file for instance, but I’d take a landscape on 4×5 or 6×7 Velvia any day. When you shoot with a 35mm ƒ2 and it’s covering the same angle of view at the 23mm ƒ2, I can see the difference not on a technical level, but on a dimensional level. This is something you have to have a lot of experience with larger formats to understand visually. Now both images at ƒ11 will look about the same, but wider open they won’t, and that’s where wedding photographers like myself live, and that’s where it matters.

            Now bear in mind that I’m NOT saying you ‘can’t’ make good images with the 23mm 1.4, it’s a gobsmackingly good lens and on the XT1 it’s really a joy to use. It’s just those situations where you’re trying to eek out that little extra something. I shot an event last weekend with a borrowed 645D and I was floored by what I was getting. Sure on a pixel level it was very sharp and that’s great, but more than that, it was closer to the picture in my head of how I wanted my images to be rendered. A 75 was my normal and a 45 was my slight wide, and the images were beautiful like I remember from my film images. Format doesn’t always matter, but don’t discount it. It’s better to have options than just 35mm and down.

          • Clint

            ‘I can see the difference not on a technical level, but on a dimensional
            level. This is something you have to have a lot of experience with
            larger formats to understand visually.’

            I completely agree! I have to say though, this isn’t something that everyone ‘gets’…but those that have worked with larger formats know what we are talking about.

          • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

            Let us pray for a X433 model then, putting the Pentax 645 sensor into a X100s type FLC, with a couple or converters!

          • Ranger 9

            Okay, I get it… it’s something you have to understand visually because you can’t see it on a technical level, but it just has that little extra something. In other words, it goes to 11. But does it have that ineffable Leica glow?

          • sperdynamite

            Uh no due you can SEE it with your EYES but not MEASURE it on an mtf chart. Just like you can’t tell me on a technical level why I like one food more than another.

          • Greg

            I understand the technology for both increases in parallel, but much like the smartphone/tablet screen/DPI wars there is eventually a point of diminishing returns. A point where both options are so good that the difference between them is meaningless. E.g the difference between a 300 DPI screen and a 400 DPI screen.
            Personally, in regard to image sensors I think we are just about at that point.

          • sperdynamite

            If you think that, I would encourage you to borrow a Rollei 2.8 or a Pentax 6×7 and you will see what a larger format can do. It’s not about the pixels, it’s about the lens.

  • photomanaic

    Well, DOC control is just different comparing FF to chop sensor, yet it still has it’s “ADVANTAGE”. At least when I use 35mm to get a similar view of field for FF at 50mm, it will be much easier to guess focus and shoot at waist level and get a higher hit rate at F2.8….hum….NICE!!

  • HF
    • tim

      It would not surprise me if Canon purchased FujiFilm camera division.

      • nwcs

        It sure would surprise a lot of us. And not entirely a smart move on Canon’s part. What would they really stand to gain?

        • DouglasGottlieb

          Brilliant industrial design

          • nwcs

            LOL, as a former Nikon guy I approve of that statement!

        • http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk23/ dirk

          Canon could gain lots of excellent mirrorless lenses. I don’t really see what Fuji would gain because canon is not exactly a strong player in the mirrorless ecosystem. Also Canons APS-C sensors are smaller than the ones Fuji is currently using…

          Maybe if they started a new FF or MF system together…

          • nwcs

            Thing is, Canon’s perfectly capable of doing that on their own if they really want to. They don’t need Fuji, just a willingness to pick a direction and go for it.

          • tim

            Canon is a business, could be cheaper just to buy Fuji X system and update the cosmetics and rebrand. After all, the market is pretty crowded, another complete lens system might be asking too much.

            Fuji gets to stop loosing money …

          • http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk23/ dirk

            I don’t think Fuji wants to sell, nor are they under any pressure to do so. We’ll see if anything happens between them.

          • Ratty Mouse

            Exactly. The X cameras have been a sink hole of lost money for Fujifilm.

          • http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk23/ dirk

            When you build a skyscraper you start by digging a very deep hole.

        • tim

          A complete mirror-less system for APS-C. The lens range must look attractive, the bodies not so much.

          Although I tend to agree, they would have to take over Fuji legacy baggage … but they could quickly produce a new Canon body to work with the lens range, and do a cosmetic update on the lenses.

        • Greg

          Agreed. This would make no sense. Canon could easily make their own mirrorless system using their existing resources. Why buy Fujifilm imaging and all it assets/baggage when they could do the same just by hiring a small internal team?
          They already have all the necessary manufacturing capabilities necessary. It’s a matter of engineering and marketing.
          Plus Fuji is just now starting to see their investment in the X series mature. They are mostly past the money-pit stage of breaking into the market and developing a reputation. They’re in a position to grow their existing investment.

    • romi.foto

      hmm.. so they would be making lenses for Fuji? FF or APSC? Fujinon lenses are already great. maybe FF lenses, and that would help Fuji in the future if and when they release a FF body.

    • Patrick

      CR deleted the rumor… I don’t think it’s reliable

  • Greg

    APS-C sensor-there’s a shock-why would Fuji go FF anyways?

  • Soon Jae Kwon

    Because I want to use leica lens on X-body?!

    • CRB

      company decisions are not made by the will of few photographers

      • DouglasGottlieb

        Fuji sure gives the appearance of listening to photographers better than any other company. Canon probably has the biggest actual budget for market research, but you would never know it judging from their highly capable but completely lacking in sex appeal and glacially evolving product line.

        • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

          yes, I wonder how they spend it… the EOS-M model(s) is a disaster and the brand does not seem to be innovating that much

          • DouglasGottlieb

            I wanted to like the EOSM, but the the interface and handling were a non-starter, as was the initial focus problems and ongoing lack of lenses. I don’t understand why they bothered releasing such a flawed product. They seem to have abandoned it, although there are always rumors that a “pro” version is coming. I gave up waiting for sexy Canon products. I still have a bunch of lenses and an old body or two, but haven’t touched it in a year and a half, after going M43.

  • romi.foto

    i’m just relieved that i can continue to use my fujinon glass at the time the xp2 would come out.

  • Danny

    Hopefully we will se it at Photokina.

  • Clint

    Of course the XPro2 will be APS-C…who would think otherwise?? This is what will happen:
    Fall 2014 X-Pro2 announced with AF and EVF from the XT1.
    Fall 2015 X200 with full frame sensor
    Fall 2016 Full frame (or bigger??) interchangeable lens body

    • DouglasGottlieb

      Could be, but Fuji’s APS results seem so competitive with FF now that moving up might be too slight of an upgrade. I bet that they skip FF altogether and launch a medium format “X200″ style camera instead, and if it works, an interchangeable MF system.

    • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

      I think X200 will come faster than that. It’s the easiest to do in the list, with almost no negative impact on the customers

  • http://danielteolijr.tumblr.com/ Daniel D. Teoli Jr

    Well, the Fuji X’s sensor is ‘in the ballpark’ with the Leica FF24mp sensor. The Leica MM is about 20% sharper than the Fuji. So, Mr. K has good standing to ‘stay put’ with the stupendous little Fuji sensor. If Fuji ever makes a FF 24mp sensor I’d bet it would be on par with the D800 36mp. Fuji sensors are magnificent!
    You can view photo test results here…

    http://photographycompared.tumblr.com/

    But, I’ve gone over many times how Fuji is lacking in manual controls compared to the Leica. A sensor alone is not the end all with a cam. While I still use Fuji for certain jobs, I’ve moved over to Leica for much of my work.
    Fuji’s are too unreliable for dim light and fast street shooting with their auto controls. The time it takes to fudge around resetting things on a Fuji…the shot is lost. I need exacting, reliable cams – that when you press the button, there is no question that the camera will perform.

    Best Regards,

    Dan

    • XPro10

      Fuji lacking manual controls? Unreliable with their “auto controls”? Whaaaat? You mean because Fuji has autofocus? Well show me how you can move that little yellow focus patch to anywhere but center frame, then I will show you how to manually focus a fuji.
      I still have a Leica (M6), Fuji is what a modern Leica SHOULD be!

    • Ratty Mouse

      Sony makes the sensors in X cameras, not Fujifilm.

      • nwcs

        Toshiba, not Sony.

        • Chris Fraudkin

          Wrong. Check back in the Xpert articles on this site from Rico Phirstinger. It is a Sony sensor.

          • nwcs

            I’ve seen chipworks has looked and found even the Toshiba part number.

      • http://www.an-chan.net/ Antoine B.

        and swatch makes watch movements for half the Swiss brands… it is not only the sensor itself that makes the camera, but all it’s integration, color filter, processing, lens, shutter, etc…

  • XPro10

    I will start saving today! This is the one I am waiting for, I have seen little reason to upgrade from my XE1, in fact I was thinking of grabbing an Xpro1 as I would like a body slightly larger for my favorite two lenses (23mm &56mm).
    I have been wanting a camera that will last for 10 years, like they use to. That I can shoot fast and instinctively after years of use like my Nikon F2′s (that I still use). This might be the one. The XPro1 was so very close! I just hope they don’t screw it up with buttons that are hard to use, EC dial that takes two fingers to turn, or useless (to me) features like “art modes”, movie button, ect. Keep it just like the Pro1 but faster, and a better EVF. Keep it a pure shooter, leave all the hi-tec gizmos for the TX.

  • Ratty Mouse

    Funny, I didn’t know that Fujifilm making a FF camera would cause all their APS-C lenses self destruct.

    The arguments against a FF camera from Fujifilm are laughable and only come from rabid drooling fan boys.

    • Juice

      LOL, the halfwits who can’t work out how splitting an R&D budget means less development of a current system are the drillers…

      • nwcs

        True. No manufacturer has full and complete lines of both APS and 35mm cameras with lenses factored in.

      • Ratty Mouse

        You do realize that Fujifilm makes lenses for compacts, APS-C, cell phones, TV cameras, binoculars, medical equipment etc??

        Oh, you didn’t? No wonder your reply sounded so ignorant.

        • nwcs

          A lot of those are run by separate business units with their own budgets. They don’t all share the same facilities, either.

          • Ratty Mouse

            The optics group is under the same budget as digital cameras. It is laughable to think that somehow making just one more line of lenses is beyond Fujifilm.

          • nwcs

            Are they able to? Yes. Can they financially justify it and believe it will be profitable? Obviously not yet.

    • Greg

      Once they complete the APS-C system I don’t care what new product lines they explore. The issue is the current system needs to be completed first. Missing a true macro, fast Tele, and real flash system.

    • gallery90

      I thought that Ratty Mouse was banned. Oh. That was somewhere else.

    • Harry

      Then go to shops and buy Nikon D800 full frame with 18-55 aps-c kit lens and shoot with it. And tell me how you are so happy with that combo. Reality shows that once u upgraded to FF, there’s no reason to keep the crop lens, unless you are a collector guy.

      Just go to a Nikon/canon forum nowadays and see how many people talks about aps-c lens, aps-c bodies, compared to FF? You will know the answer. Once u upgrade to FF, there’s no turning back, unless you are shooting specific subjects such as birds or wildlife
      Where range is more important. Even then, u still gonna use something like 400mm/600mm FF lens to get the job done.

      My point is, once you have full frame, aps-c lens will not be in your radar anymore and this is the reason why Fuji have to studied hard before making the big decision. People will have to fork another huge amount of money for a new complete system and use their aps-c only as back up or worst case-abandon their current system.

      Seriously, if Fuji introduce FF body with FF lens such as XF 105mm f 1.2 lens, can you guarantee me existing users of x-pro1/x-t1 would not upgrade and sell of their current system? i.e self destruct of teh current system? Of course you can’t :)

  • TheWhiteDog

    Would be silly to go FF, orphaning all those beautiful lenses they have made so far. And even if(and it would be) mirrorless, the body would weigh less but the lenses wouldn’t compared to Canon’s or Nikon’s, probably wouldn’t balance well on the body even. NO manufacturer can be everything to everybody, even though SONY thinks it can be. Canon & Nikon”s huge advantage is all the lenses they have out there for full frame, it would take SONY or Fuji a decade to create an equivelent line. And nevermind their extensive array of pheripherals, most noteably flash systems, which both SONY, and especially Fuji, need to develop.

    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk23/ dirk

      You mean like every first child becomes an orphan when the second is born?

      Also there would be a size advantage for wideangle lenses.

    • Jukka Saarikko

      Your comment makes zero sense. Why would it “orphan” the current lenses? Would FF mean that every current Fuji APS-C owner would be forced to ditch their cameras?

      • TheWhiteDog

        It would “orphan” them because Fuji would have to put all their resources into developing the full frame line- probaly meaning no new advances in the existing line of cameras. Fuji is not SONY, they can’t afford to do everything. Though photography related business is only 13% of what Fuji does(despite their name) I highly doubt they are going to risk the profits from the other 87%(mainly pharmaceuticals).to do more in a shrinking market.

        • Jukka Saarikko

          “All their resources”? As you mentioned, Fuji also does lots of other stuff than just APS-C line, how come those hasn’t crippled/orphaned APS-C stuff? Also, how many different APS-C bodies Fuji has produces during the last couple of years? Thinking about it, maybe they actually should take some resources from all that aps-c stuff.

        • D

          Actually, it seems that Sony can’t afford to do everything either. Sony keeps pumping out camera bodies with very few lenses. A camera is only as useful as the lenses that support it.

  • http://mjones41.smugmug.com/ matt jones

    I just want to add my voice to congratulate Fuji for their continued commitment to the X system. I am very glad they are not doing a Sony.

  • Ben Campbell

    I love you Fuji!

  • PRL

    Great news, I still love my x100 and it’s results but have been waiting for the next generation sensor before I jump. Can’t wait for the XPRO 2!

    I was wondering if Fuji will go the same route with the rumoured Medium Format camera as they did with the X100, in other words starting with a fixed lens camera and then evolving an interchangeable PRO MF with an array of stunning primes. Could it be that with the Organic sensor on the way that FF will be completely bypassed.

  • Lumen

    Size matters, but I don’t mean the sensorsize !

    I mean, I think the PRO2 wil be bigger than T1 in order to accomodate the 18-135, 16-55, 50-140 and other forthcoming telelenses better than T1. I suppose the T1 even with a big grip is just al little to small for these lenses although it can be done.

    I think the T1 is the sweet spot for low weight/volume/tech with the smaller lenses (even some zoom lenses), while the PRO2 will be that for the new to come bigger (zoom-) lenses. And of course the tech will be better.

    Time will tell,

  • Jack

    I can see that a lot of ppl would have been pissed with fuji producing a FF camera for the simple fact that a better camera than their APSC would have been launched.

    The truth is that if fuji continued making APSCs, a flash system and lenses for it but on the side launched a xpro body with a FF sensor in it and a few lenses with it, a lot of ppl would have been jumping to FF feeling bitter having to put their apsc system on eBay.

    • Jukka Saarikko

      I’ve pretty much come to same conclusion. They’re afraid their current cameras, X-T1 or X-Pro wouldn’t be Fuji’s flagships anymore. All the talk how FF would eat capacity from R&D to the extent that Fuji wouldn’t be able to provide more lenses or flash system for their crop-sensor cameras, sound like poor excuses. I bet that if X-Pro2 (or X100s) came with the same sensor than the current models, and only minor tweaks, current APS-C owners would still be praising them all over the place, just because they’d be happy that there’s not a new FF body with better IQ than their cameras :P

    • nwcs

      And yet the real “truth” is that no one who has been pining for a Fuji 35mm digital camera can demonstrate (beyond their opinions and anecdotes) that there is a sufficient market for the product to justify Fuji making it. After all this time and proclamations of the Sony A7 flying off the shelf Sony hasn’t made a dent in Canon/Nikon. Why would Fuji, as the 5th entrant into digital 35mm be more successful?

      • Jack

        By doing a better job in the realisation and production of lenses.

        If the price is affordable, lenses are good in size and performance, fuji adds their retro look, their x-trans tech, their hybrid vf. A lot of ppl will go for it and a lot of those ppl will the ones who haven’t bought the a7 being disappointed by sony’s work.

        Not only it’s a sad news that we won’t see fuji’s answer to sony but it’s also a bad news that sony doesn’t have the competition in FF mirror less AF pushing them in doing better.

        • nwcs

          Lots of ifs there. And a lot of people may go for it. But what’s a lot? 1,000? 10,000? 20,000? None of those are enough volume to cover the costs. It wouldn’t even be a halo product to bring people into the ecosystem. Being a “me too” product in a crowded market just won’t cut it.

          You know, maybe Fuji doesn’t need to “answer” Sony. Maybe their answer is to let Sony flounder while they continue to work out the kinks in X series cameras and find the right combinations without muddying the water.

          • Andrew

            Agree! fuji made a splash with the xt1, if they keep improving it could be the start of a fuji storm

    • Jonavin

      Why stop at FF. Fuji should just make digital versions of their relatively portable medium format cameras.

      • Ash

        Stay tuned to this site…

  • Ed

    I’d better start saving!

  • Nanda Linn Aung

    I would stick with APS-C and produce better and more competitive lens first. it’s a new dawn..

  • Eddie

    I hope fuji see this my few simple wishlist for the X-Pro2
    1.Do Not include the tilt and touch screen as they will completely ruins the retro look.
    2.Improve the VF
    3.Improve the processor
    4.Improve the autofocus
    5.Fix the aperture noises
    6.Remove the shutter speed dials lock for easier handling

  • WaveDancer

    ,,,, and improve Video!

  • WaveDancer

    … and get prof. timelaps features, improve battery life!

  • xlaburu

    My personal opinion as a user of the x-pro 1 is that making it a FF will make the price of the camera shoot to the sky and be simillar to those of canon 5D or Nikon D800 and the same would hapen with the lenses. I don’t think that this is convinient for a camera that can’t be considered an all purpouse camera to have the price taggs of a pro DSLR. Would I, as a photographer, invest the same amount of money I spend in my reflex for a FF x-pro? I don’t know, I like the reduced size of the camera, and the price… obviously the looks too, but it all reduces to the fact that I can recover the investment in a piece of equipement that is only for certain kind of jobs, and I think that that is possible with this price tag but obviously a bit more complicated if the price would increase much.

    Said this, obviously there are pros. and cons. in some cases they are well solved, like the loss of DOF due to a smaller sensor, that I think they compensated it brillantly with great lighty lenses for a fraction of the price a FF lense of such characteristics would cost.

    AF is still an issue, not that I find it that slow, but specially I miss a true tracking AF, doesen’t have much sens have ashooting boost of 6 fps and not to be able to track a subject that is moving. Here I would try to get a hibrid kind of AF system like they did in some smaller cameras, but one that works.

    The buffer and microprocessor, yes, I would like it to be faster, specially when using the EVF.

    Low light improvement and perhaps a slight bit of resolution? I like the idea that Sony had of a retroiluminated CMOS for low light performance, something simillar aplied to the X-trans and some 20 few Mpx would be great.

    A faster MF system, despite the assistance works quite well for static objects, it is totally useless for moving ones, the XT-1 has some kind of digital split image thing, don’t know how that works, but it is something to think about.

    A faster EVF, though I like to use the OVF, I recognize that the EVF is great for certain situations, but it is quite slow and you end up blacked out a bit too long for my liking (at least compared to a DSLR)

    Weather sealing please!

    These for me would be the main issues, after, obviously I would like a better video system, and specially a plug for periphericals, like micros and so on. The integrated Wi-Fi is an other thing that I hope they will install in the camera. Something that also annoies me a bit is the eye detection of the viewfinder, I would simply prefere to be able to configure the camera to have the pictures taken through the viewfinder and the menu options on the screen, unless I feel like using the Life View on the screen, that is not all that often anyway.

    In any case it is a camera I love with it’s good things and bad things and I hope it doesen’t loose it’s certain amount of magic in the new version.